I feel like I have to weigh in on this. The church Sarah Palin once attended appears to believe people can be “healed” of homosexuality.
Background: I’m a born-again Christian who loves … is that the word? I value gay people. I believe God blessed the planet with gay people and I don’t care if anyone agrees with me. Gay people make the world a better place in many, many ways. As a Christian, I cannot deny that the Bible calls homosexuality a sin, but I don’t care. My position is that, if God thinks it’s a sin, He has the power to change it and if He wants too … I’m okay with that, but I haven’t seen evidence of it, and I hope He doesn’t.
In my life, I’ve seen gay Christians who love God and their committed relationships are blessed by God.
Let’s just call it a sin since the Bible does. So is gluttony and we share God’s grace for that. Divorce is a sin that Jesus talked about (He didn’t talk about homosexuality), and the church has largely extended God’s grace to divorced people.
Sarah Palin may or may not be where I am in my belief that we should love gay men and women whether they stop being gay or not. I hope that isn’t what God wants. Lots of Christians hope God wants them to change. Either way … it isn’t up to us. It’s up to Him.
What is up to us is that we love each other the same as we love ourselves. I extend a bunch of grace to myself and therefore I extend almost an unlimited amount of grace to anyone who doesn’t hurt me personally.
I believe the church will move toward extended unconditional love to every person who walks the planet. Sarah will too. Is she there yet? I don’t know, but if she loves Jesus, I know she’ll get there because He loves and died for me … just as I am.
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Neal, I think you’re destined to forever confuse people with your beliefs, no matter how clearly you explain them. Good for you. You’re being true to your own set of beliefs, rather than fitting into one of the standard molds of liberal or conservative, and you clearly don’t fit into the standard profiles of either of the Big Two parties. It’s why you’ve identified yourself as politically homeless. It makes me wonder how many people tend to adopt parts of a party’s platform, whether they firmly believe it all or not, because they tend to identify themselves with that party.
I hope people who have a knee-jerk reaction against one party (or belief) or another can read this post and consider that how we treat people is ultimately what’s most import as we interact. No one but God has it all figured out and we’d all do well not to act as if we are right and the person on the other side of the arbitrary line is wrong.
I like your thinking…grace covers all even once I realize that I’m sinning…can’t wait to become a serial killer. No worries.
Randy, I don’t think I know you. It’s nice of you to weigh in, but your comment without context leaves me expecting more. I have to believe you’re not demon possessed and saying serial killing equates to a committed relationship between a same-sex couple. That opinion would not be reflective of a relationship with a God of mercy and grace.
Totally agree that he is a God of grace and mercy.
Lord knows I have had my share of that mercy. But once I know I have committed sin I turn away from doing that. To knowingly sin again puts you in a dangerous place…
Like you I am a born again Christian and like you have some roots in Southern Gospel music, I was taught piano by Rosie Speer (Powell) and many times had to play in from of the Ben, Brock, Harold Lane, etc…
As you said the Bible says it’s a sin. To me that means case closed. To continue to sin puts you at risk for that mercy to run out. As we both know the God of mercy also killed tens of thousands of the children of Israel as well as cursed a fig tree lol
My position is that the Bible calls it a sin and it says the wages of sin is death. To repeat of a sin means to true away from that sin. Even if it’s a loving relationship. A loving relationship isn’t as important to God as you following the Bible (which if you do will lead to a loving relationship). Just like a loving married couple (man and women) who don’t obtain salvation are sinning and face death . They might be the best people in the world, but if they haven’t found God they will be punished…maybe not what I think is fair, but I didn’t create the universe so I play by his rules.
As a gay man with one of those commited relationships I reason that a gay man cannot be a christian. He is rejected in both testiments. The religion of love is not compatable with the religions of the book.
Randy - you’re the reason we’re not there yet. You’re not gay, I presume (or at least out of the closet) so you don’t know nor can you judge if I am a Christian or not a Christian.
Do you honestly believe that I chose to be this way? Honestly? Do you not think I prayed (I’ll bet harder than you ever have prayed over something) for years to take away my homosexuality?
Do you know the only time I’ve felt peace and love was when I prayed to God in 2001 and said “Jesus, you created me just the way I am. I no longer feel you’re against me for being gay. So because you’ve given me grace and you’ve died for me, I will accept who I am as you have.”
And on that day when I said that prayer I never felt more of a love and a REAL relationship with God than I ever have in all my 20+ years growing up in a pentecostal church.
So, my dear one, you’re incorrect. Jesus has nothing wrong with us gays. We love the same you love.
Love can’t be a sin.
Jeff
Neal -
Interesting post. I won’t debate politics because that will just devalue your awesome post of love, grace and acceptance.
If the world were filled with more Christians like yourself. It’s truly a shame that the church has turned so sinful in this arena (hating, condemning and trying to “heal” something that isn’t sin).
Now don’t get me started on Palin.
People judged Obama for the pastor of his church, right? The same should then be said of Palin, no?
How each of us live is going to be between each of us and our Maker. The decisions we make, those right ones and those wrong ones…. are between us as individuals and God.
I’m instructed not to judge, so I don’t. I’m instructed to love, so I do. It’s not a case of “only love *specific* people” or “don’t judge *some* people” it’s an “ALL” thing.
I love my gay and straight friends equally. While I’m not gay myself, that’s my decision. As for my gay friends? That’s their decision. I’m not responsible for their lives, and they’re not responsible for mine. Everyone should just look after their own space - make sure they are doing what they believe is right, and love everyone equally.
While it doesn’t seem that hard, I wonder why so many people get hung up!
@worm I agree wholeheartedly that I am only responsible for myself (which is a handful). I use the Bible to govern my life (as we should) and anything that I make a statement about I had better be able to quote chapter and verse where it’s said in the Bible. For this discussion I think we all know there are chapter and verse in both the old and new and this sin.
I agree we should not judge, but if the matter is found in the Bible then the it’s not judging. We know that in the Bible that killing is wrong and we know that if a person doesn’t repent of that sin they will perish. So if I know a person will not confess his sins and he is a murder …can I not say he is doomed? That judgment would be based on known facts. Of course most of the time we do not know all the facts..in that case we should keep our mouth shut or just reference what we know from the Bible about the topic.
My choice is to love, love, love and accept, accept, accept because Jesus said with the same measure we judge we’ll be judged. I’m all for letting God be the judge because He has ultimate perspective. I don’t see a scriptural interpretation where I get judged for not extending grace. Jesus died for all of us. To me? That ends the discussion.
The End…
Anyone up for ice cream?
@Randy - Yes! Ice cream.
Stuff icecream, it’s morning here - bacon time! (oh wait.. at work… settling for a cream-cheese bagel instead)
@Randy
Agree mostly with what you say, however, the criteria for non-perishment (I know that may not be a word, but I like it
) is in John 3:16 - so long as that criteria is met, then I believe you’re not doomed. HOWEVER, that’s not saying we should disregard the bible, or pick and choose the bits we like and ignore the bits we don’t - but once you believe - you *should* automatically strive to sin-less….. however, as I’m a God-fearing sinner, I know it’s not all that easy to accomplish.
@Tastyworm - you can’t imagine how difficult it was for me not to counter Randy’s ice cream suggestion with bacon, but I gave in to the hugs. Now, I’m thinking ice cream with bacon on the side?
The difference I see between homosexuality, and gluttony and divorce, is that gluttons and divorcees are not campaigning to have their sins declared unsinful by the church. If we confess our sins, we are forgiven. If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. (I John 1:9-10)
Neal,
I have to say something about your comment about “He [Jesus] didn’t talk about homosexuality”. And you can insert any “named sin” in place of homosexuality.
1. You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. Lev 18:22 (ESV) (I also tell people that contextually the following verse should go along with it too … And you shall not lie with any animal and so make yourself unclean with it, neither shall any woman give herself to an animal to lie with it: it is perversion. Lev 18:23 (ESV))
2. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. John 1:1-2 (ESV) “The Personal Word,” a title of the Son of God; this identification is substantiated by the statements of doctrine in John 1:1-18, declaring in verses John 1:1, 2 (1) His distinct and superfinite Personality, (2) His relation in the Godhead (pros, “with,” not mere company, but the most intimate communion), —Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words
3. Jesus and God are one, then it was also Jesus who said Lev 18:22.
4. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. Heb 13:8 (ESV) (again with context, Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, … Heb 13:9a (ESV)
@ Akagaga - Amen, well said!
I would like to say one more thing as a general comment, God’s Grace and Mercy is NOT a license to sin.
Wish I could speak (or write) as well as Jamey…good job.
You can condemn me to hell for choosing grace over judgment, but I cannot comprehend a God who views a committed homosexual marriage as sin.
At any rate, my point of view is based on the words of Jesus. He said, with the same measure you judge, you’ll BE judged. My response to that is to give all kinds of grace in all kinds of ways because I’d most like to be judged for my grace.
I’m not quite willing to admit publicly the degree to which I disdain Paul’s, the Apostle’s, influence on Christianity but I’ll say this: If Jesus didn’t condemn it, I’m not too worried about it. Jesus seemed to mostly be upset about religion, so that’s what I choose to mostly be upset by.
Neal,
I’m not condemning you, I was just making a comment and attempted to back my comment with scripture. I too choose grace over judgment. You are correct about judge, be judged.
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Phil 2:12-13 (ESV)
We must be diligent in the use of all the means which lead to our salvation, persevering therein to the end. With great care, lest, with all our advantages, we should come short. Work out your salvation, for it is God who worketh in you. This encourages us to do our utmost, because our labour shall not be in vain: we must still depend on the grace of God. —Matthew Henry Concise
@ Randy - thank you, but I quote my sources and to them I give credit.
@Jamey: There is only 1 means to salvation. Jesus says “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life”.
Jesus also says “It is finished”.
This is the work you need to work out your salvation about, wrapping your head about Jesus’ complete and everlastingly finished work, and to trust in, rely on, and cleave to, him.
@mag Isn’t that what Phil 2:13 says? “for it is God who works in you,…”
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